Danny Phantom Online Community

[Quantum Iguana]

He's in a bind, if he went back to Earth, he'd be hunted. If he went to the ghost zone, he'd be hunted. He can survive in sapce in his ghost form, but is he really going to sit there forever?

Maybe there could be a spin off "My Name is Vlad", where he comes back to Earth, and tried to make ammends with everyone he has wronged. But seriously though, he's going to have an awful lot of time to think.

One option is that he could align himself with a powerful ghost, but no matter how much time he has to think, I couldn't see him as the henchman.

Or he could go into hiding on Earth, better an isolated cabin in the woods than to sit on an asteroid.

[theFrey]

I had always thought, and I am not exactly sure what made me think it... that the location Vlad is at in space was too far to get to, even for a ghost, without some sort of propulsion.

Possibly, even if he was game to return the slow way (during which he would continue to age) would he even be able to find his way with out navigational gadgets to make sure he was even going in the right direction.

[docarrol]

That entire cluster of space debris around the Disasteroid was all coming towards Earth together (or more precisely, it was all falling towards the Sun in Earth's general direction). It was all stuff that was kicked out of orbit around Saturn by the (improbably energetic) explosion of Vlad's station, and so it was all traveling in the same general direction and speed.

There'd be some dispersal of the group, so most of it would miss hitting Earth, most of it by quite a large margin. Some of it might hit the moon, or getting deflected by Earth's gravity, or the moon's, or still hit Earth, but burn up in re-entry, or hit the surface and do damage, but not enough to threaten either human civilization or general extinction - the Disasteroid appeared to be the only one big enough to be worried about. I'd expect some really impressive meteor showers in the days before and after the Disasteroid, though, and possibly again at some point in the future, after falling past Venus, Mercury, the Sun, and Earth again (though that would be a long shot)

::waves it off:: Sorry, off on a tangent there.

My point was, Vlad was with the group of rocks and crap around the Disasteroid, all of which was traveling to the general vicinity of Earth at about the same time as the Disasteroid was passing through. Assuming Vlad wanted to come back, instead of sitting out there forever, he could have hopped off then and flown back down from orbit.

We saw the massive disruption and panic leading up to the Disasteroid, Vlad's (completely successful) attempt to take over the world, the revelation of the existence of the ghosts and the Ghost Zone to the general public and governments of the world, and the unprecedented and likely crippling financial and industrial efforts required to organize and build the Tower at the South Pole. I further posit an inevitably chaotic aftermath in the wake of all that. Even if you're optimistic and assume that everything goes back to more or less status-quo in the weeks and months after the Disasteroid passed, that still gives plenty of scope for Vlad to come down and disappear into the shadows almost anywhere in the world.

And that's assuming he needs to. Vlad could just hole up in one of his secret labs, and secretly give orders to his various companies, accountants, and armies of lawyers through proxies. They could tie up any attempts to seize his assets and dismantle his companies for years if not decades, and they might very well win. And even if they ultimately fail to keep everything intact, that would still give Vlad plenty of time to siphon away his resources to secret accounts, shell companies, and hidden stockpiles.

As for the Ghost Zone? The ghosts cooperated with Danny to save their own hides (though how he convinced them all in the time available is still beyond me), I'm not not even sure they knew Vlad was responsible for the disaster. And even if they did know, the ghosts seem to respect/fear the powerful and ambitious. They might actually be okay with what he tried to do. But even if he's personna non grata in the GZ, it would still be fairly easy for Vlad to hide out there just given how big and empty it is.

And again that's assuming that Vlad didn't have an emergency bolt hole or safe house set up in the GZ with supplies and resources he'd need if he ever had to lay low for a while and launch a come back.

So in my (not so) humble opinion? Yeah, Vlad could very easily be around, and possibly just as much of a crazed fruit loop pain in the neck as ever, should the fanfic author feel the need.

So have go-to and have fun with it! Cheers!

docarrol

[AiredaleLady]

My crazy idea was that he would hitchhike back either on the space shuttle or wind up haunting the Int'l space station. Stupid idea, I know, but it would provide an impetus for him to return to earth.

[latieraeve]

Unless he survived that gigantic asteroid crushing him I dont think hell be alive

[docarrol]

latieraeve @ 03 Feb 2010 01:02 pm wrote:

Unless he survived that gigantic asteroid crushing him I dont think hell be alive

Personally, based on the overall lighthearted tone of the show, and the heavy handed "this is supposed to be a comedic moment" sound track playing during that scene, I believe the intent was that getting hit like that be no more than a comedic prat-fall. Painful, perhaps a setback, but not intended to produce permanent injury.

But that's from a meta-story perspective, and authorial intent gets less credance than it used to in the modern/postmodern literary analysis/critique. So let's take a look at what we actually see happening on screen.

I'll spare you the math But in a transfer of momentum, when a small object hits a much, much larger one (assuming there are no forces actively driving the two together or preventing them from separating, and also assuming neither squashes or breaks or or sticks or otherwise absorbs much energy), then the smaller object will rebound at approximately twice the speed at which they hit, and the larger object will be slowed an infinitesimal amount.

A force is proportional to the change in mass, speed, or direction of travel of an object. The impact, as experience by the smaller object in that collision I described above, is the force needed to change it's speed from whatever it was before (+1x) to double that in the opposite direction (-2x). That's a difference of 3 times the original speed, and Vlad's mass doesn't change. That's the equivalent amount of force you'd feel if you hit a stationary object at 3x-speed and come to a full stop.

The Disasteroid looked like it was moving at a walking pace, maybe 2-3 miles an hour, when it hit Vlad. So, to Vlad, it would have felt like running into a tree or the side of a building or other stationary object, at a speed of around 6-9 miles an hour. Since that's something I've actually done more than once (being active/restless kid and with insufficient observational awareness'll get ya ), I can tell you that that's enough to cause some bruising, maybe some shallow cuts, but not enough to break bones (unless you hit wrong, which I have - well technically that was a fall after a run and jump, but you get the idea), and certainly not enough to cause death (unless you hit at really just exactly the wrong angle, which I've managed to avoid so far ). And that's assuming that Vlad's half-ghost, superior durability and resiliency has been disrupted by the Disasteroid's ecto-ranium anti-ghost effects.

We also know that Vlad survived his first attempt to turn the Disasteroid intangible with no apparent injury other than some incidental pain. He didn't lose his ghost powers, wasn't forced to change back to a human, and didn't have any problems with being in the vacuum of space. So even getting run over by the Disasteroid left Vlad in pain or temporarily weakened, due to the ecto-ranium, it wouldn't have directly killed him. So unless the ecto-ranium made Vlad much more vulnerable to physical blunt-force to than even his normal human form, he should have been fine; not even seriously injured.

I know Vlad's ultimate fate after that last blow has been debated before, and some people have come to quite different conclusions (some of which as turned up in fanfics), but that's my personal take.

(And no scary math or physics in sight! )

docarrol

[DannyPhanXOX]

OMG I wanted to scream when that happened to him D: But I loved how Jack owned him -- he gets many props for that, in my book.

But I hope that He made it back to earth somehow. I mean, Vlad can't go down that easily. He had to make it back somehow -- Danny needs an archvillain nemesis >:C

[Quantum Iguana]

I think that the point of him getting hit by the asteroid at the end was just a bit of comedy, to have even that little bit of comfort taken from him. I think if he returned, he'd no longer be the villain that he had been, I think he's learned his lesson, he doesn't rage against his fate, he's resigned to it.

But at some point, I think he would come back to Earth.

[theFrey]

I agree, that the asteroid hitting him, probably didn't do too much to him. But the "oh Butter nuts*" as it hit him was pretty funny.

But Vlad not rage against fate? I don't know.

In the Ultimate Enemy I was surprised at how resigned he was, and that was after years and years and the knowledge that NOTHING he could do would bring back his powers and Maddie.

In Phantom Planet he still had his powers, admittedly not much help out in space. (other than that keeping him alive with out life support) And he was fronted out in front of the entire world, including Jack and Maddie. And to add insult to injury, diss'ed at the end by Jack.

Vlad might be able to get back to earth, and he could hide I am sure. Heck, even if he lost his fortune, he could steal another one. But after the relief of returning, (and being able to go non-ghost without dying from lack of oxygen) he would never be able to resume his "Vlad Masters" identity. He would have to stay low key don't you think?

And after a few years of being a nobody (with really cool 'somebody' powers) and occasionally seeing news reports about 'The mother of Danny Phantom" I am pretty sure he would start doing at least a low boil. Don't you think he would be raging quite a bit once the relief of being back wore off? I wonder what he would start planning then?





*or butter brickle or butter beer or what ever he said

[Neo Yi]

theFrey @ Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:35 pm wrote:

I agree, that the asteroid hitting him, probably didn't do too much to him. But the "oh Butter nuts*" as it hit him was pretty funny.

But Vlad not rage against fate? I don't know.

In the Ultimate Enemy I was surprised at how resigned he was, and that was after years and years and the knowledge that NOTHING he could do would bring back his powers and Maddie.

He lost his ghost powers for the past ten years during that time, not to mention Danny ended up doing something he never suspected. Combined with the death of Maddie and Jack, it was probably too much for Vlad to do other then contemplate how much of a monster he became. After all, Vlad's not above redemption and seeing Danny of all people behaving violently probably gave him a stern wake up call.

Over the years, he probably lost more and more faith and just lied in his hidden base in seclusion.

The same situation could befall him in "Phantom Planet". He regrets what he has done and with nothing left for him in the depths of space, he's finally come to a point where he IS alone and desperate, the very things he wanted so badly to avoid. Perhaps he will be filled with rage, but he may just be dismayed and guilt-ridden for his past sins. He has a lot of time to reflect on it now.

[docarrol]

What if we turn the question around. Even if we assume that Vlad was stuck away from Earth for some extended period of time, or forever, does that necessarily mean he'll be alone?

We didn't see any aliens during the show, so those may be out (though that's what I thought about Kim Possible until Warmonga showed up, so you never know). But it would probably be more thematic to find "Space Ghosts".

• Restless spirits who've left (or been forced) to cast off into the heavens for one reason or another. Lost a fight? Running from King Pariah Dark? Punishment from the Observants?
  
• Ghosts who exited one of the random natural GZ portals that happened to open in space, and gotten trapped when they closed behind them.
  
• Maybe the unresting spirits of test pilots and prospective astro/cosmo-nauts who died at high altitude, and just kept going...up.
  
• In Real Life, there haven't been any humans killed in space (unless there was a Cold War cover up or something), but there have been a fair number of test animals who died for their country and science, starting with the heroic and tragic Laika in 1957. Perhaps some of their ghosts are up there and pissed off, similar to Cujo?
  
• Or, as this is a fictional world with technology somewhat in advance of ours in several respects, maybe in Danny's version of history, there have been tragic human deaths in space. A shuttle/rocket/capsule/station that blew up in orbit, rather than during launch, reentry, or touchdown, or a micrometer punctured suit while on EVA, or even an accident during the moon landings.
  
• Heck, for all we know, they might have built one of the permanent space stations or moon bases that was planned back in the 60s, and have a large enough permanent or rotating population for people to die of human or natural medical causes, rather than accident or disaster; heart failure or murder/manslaughter or whatever.
  
• And we suffered through the pain that was Pandora and the Vortex, the Weather Ghost, so maybe there's (ugh) a literal, spectral, Man in the Moon, too.

And I'm sure there are plenty of other possibilities you could come up with. So who knows? Even if Vlad was trapped up there, he might very well have been in good company

docarrol

[baronobeefdip]

This might sound crazy, and I'm sure people may have considered this situation before, but...

...What if Vlad died before he got hit by the Disasteroid?

I mean, if one were to consider the fact that he's sitting in space without his helmet on...and if one were to simply ignore that his lack-of-helmet is an animation error....one could safely assumed that he must've ran out of oxygen (or something similiar) and perished in out of space before getting smacked by the giant rock.

Plus, he's already in ghost-form when the Disasteroid smushed him...so...yeah....


As for company, he'd probably encounter King Ghidorah sooner or later .

[theFrey]

baronobeefdip @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:51 pm wrote:

This might sound crazy, and I'm sure people may have considered this situation before, but...

...What if Vlad died before he got hit by the Disasteroid?

I mean, if one were to consider the fact that he's sitting in space without his helmet on...and if one were to simply ignore that his lack-of-helmet is an animation error....one could safely assumed that he must've ran out of oxygen (or something similiar) and perished in out of space before getting smacked by the giant rock.

Plus, he's already in ghost-form when the Disasteroid smushed him...so...yeah....

As for company, he'd probably encounter King Ghidorah sooner or later .

I always wondered about the helmet. I mean Danny wears one when he goes into space, but why? In ghost form he can go underground, water ect.. with out worring about oxygen, why not space. And besides, what good does a helmet alone do? After all, hazmat suits (which was the basis of his ghost outfit) are not space worthy. And even if they were, the suit was not altered to take the seal of a space helmet.

I would think, that so long as he was not in enough pain to make him go human, his ghost form will survive just fine.

[Quantum Iguana]

Perhaps the helmet is so tha Danny can breathe is he is forced back to his human form.

[theFrey]

Quantum Iguana @ Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:24 pm wrote:

Perhaps the helmet is so tha Danny can breathe is he is forced back to his human form.

Perhaps, but why? If for some reason he switched back in to human form, he would be wearing t-shirt and jeans. A helmet is not going to protect you if the rest of your body is exposed to the cold vaccum of space. Even if he somehow retained his hazmat suit, the helmet is not locked into any kind of suit seal. And even if it was, as I said, your average hazmat suit is not space worthy.

[Neo Yi]

theFrey @ Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:36 pm wrote:

Perhaps, but why? If for some reason he switched back in to human form, he would be wearing t-shirt and jeans. A helmet is not going to protect you if the rest of your body is exposed to the cold vaccum of space. Even if he somehow retained his hazmat suit, the helmet is not locked into any kind of suit seal. And even if it was, as I said, your average hazmat suit is not space worthy.

I always took in the fact that Danny only wore a helmet because he's half ghost, meaning he has the mortal need to breathe. However in ghost form, he has that ability to keep warm in space - after all, if ghosts are dead creatures (or monsters or whatever Hartman says), why would they need to worry about space's harsh conditions?

[docarrol]

You actually could survive unprotected in space for possibly as long as a few minutes.

• Don't try holding your breath because gasses expanding in the low pressure would force fatal air bubbles into your blood. And that will kill you quickly in just a few seconds.
  
• You'd have to exhale forcefully just as you hit vacuum, but that would allow you to survive long enough to pass out after the first quarter minute or so, from lack of oxygen.
  
• Ebullism, the bubbling of various bodily fluids to the surface, typically around the eyes, mouth, tongue, nose, would cause some damage, as would the expansion of your tissue and organs with the removal of pressure. But you would absolutely not explode, have your lungs turned inside out, or have your eyes pop out.
  
• "Space hickeys" are likely though. Bruised patches on your skin caused by the fine vessels near the surface bursting.
  
• The temperatures are fairly extreme, but vacuum is a very good insulator. So no frostbite; at least not in the first few minutes.
  
• Radiation isn't going to kill you in a few minutes, though if you're in direct sunlight, and close enough to the sun, the UV might give you a nasty tan/burn.

So basically, you'd be more or less okay until lack of oxygen kills you or causes irreversible brain damage after 2 or 4 minutes. You'd be injured, of course, and you wouldn't be very happy for a good while afterwards, but you'd probably survive more or less intact if you could get to safety in the first couple of minutes.
[Edit]Well, for limited values of okay, and that's assuming you were getting immediate and substantial medical treatment, in addition to being picked up from space and returned to standard air mix, temp, and pressure.

Beyond that...

Why a helment? Well, as 2001 famously put it, no one can hear you scream in space. Or do anything else. There's no air to carry the sound waves. If Danny wanted to talk to Sam, Tucker, Vlad, or anyone, he'd need, (a) a radio (or some other non-acoustic comm device: laser, microwave tight-beam, etc.), and (b) air between his vocal cords and the radio mic. Build the radio into an air-tight helmet, and *hey-presto* you've got both at once.

So why could we hear Vlad, when he had no helmet?
Err... Uh, maybe that was his internal monolog voice over, as he was clearly talking to himself?

As for the hazmat suits: Well, we know they're considerably non-standard to begin with. They're very form fitting, for one thing, and tend to have have gadgets built in, and I don't think normal hazmat suits are rated for ectoplasm and ghostly-energies. So although I would have thought it unlikely, I suppose it's not impossible for the Fenton Suits to be designed with an air-tight neck seal.

docarrol

[theFrey]

docarrol @ Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:01 pm wrote:

Beyond that... Why a helment? Well, as 2001 famously put it, no one can hear you scream in space. Or do anything else. There's no air to carry the sound waves. If Danny wanted to talk to Sam, Tucker, Vlad, or anyone, he'd need, (a) a radio (or some other non-acoustic comm device: laser, microwave tight-beam, etc.), and (b) air between his vocal cords and the radio mic. Build the radio into an air-tight helmet, and *hey-presto* you've got both at once.

As for the hazmat suits: Well, we know they're considerably non-standard to begin with. They're very form fitting, for one thing, and tend to have have gadgets built in, and I don't think normal hazmat suits are rated for ectoplasm and ghostly-energies. So although I would have thought it unlikely, I suppose it's not impossible for the Fenton Suits to be designed with an air-tight neck seal.
docarrol

Okay, I can buy the communication part of the helmet as why ghost boy wore it. Since he didn't need it for anything else while he was a ghost.

And I can more than buy the super duper Fenton improved hazmat suit with neck seal..... which will not help him at all if he turns human with the accompanying normal jeans and sneakers. ;D

[Bluemoonalto]

The whole "kids in space!" sequence was the only thing I didn't like about that episode, so I'll have to point out that Valerie was able to survive in her skin-tight suit with no discernible life-support systems.

Quote:

Well, for limited values of okay, and that's assuming you were getting immediate and substantial medical treatment, in addition to being picked up from space and returned to standard air mix, temp, and pressure.

Calculate the exact improbability of that happening, and you'll be rescued by the Heart of Gold. [/random Hitchhiker's reference.]

[docarrol]

Hey, it worked for Dave in 2001. Missing a helmet, and trapped by HAL in his POD, he was able to do an EVA and slip from one air lock to another and represurize before he passed out. There are a few other (tolerably more or less realisitic) examples in film and books of people quickly enduring short periods of vacuum before getting back to a livable environment, usually under their own power (and contrived circumstances). Though you're right, I can't, off hand, think of one where someone was stranded in vacuum, and then randomly stumbled over and rescued by someone else. Other than Ford and Arthur, of course

As for Valerie?
Well, we know that her suit was already allowing her to fly and fight otherwise unprotected at high altitude and high speeds. From that we can assume that it was a pressure suit that supplemented her breathable oxygen, and was either heated or insulated against the low temps at altitude. Furthermore, as Valerie was also performing high-g maneuvers, the suit must also have functioned as a g-suit, providing pressure to the extremities to prevent grey-out/black-out by ensuring the brain and central organs got sufficient blood flow and oxygen. Plus it was specifically a battle suit, and so almost certainly included some form of integrated light-weight low profile armor, to give her some protection from slicing and blunt force damage, shock, ecto-based attacks, etc. (And given the way her silhouette changes when she puts it on, I'm thinking there's also some kind of girdle or corset integrated in there too. Kinky, kinky Vlad and Technus )

So between all that, yeah, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on brief stint in space. (See? You can hand-wave almost anything, if you try hard enough )

And then there's Batman. Batman can breath in space.

docarrol